[speedgibson] Speed Gibson: Strom vs Pogemiller

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Posted by Speed Gibson:
Strom vs Pogemiller
http://speedgibson.powerblogs.com/posts/1188709323.shtml


   The newly cast "David Strom Show" is two for two, with a surprise
   appearance by Senate Majority Leader Larry Pogemiller. This was one of
   the most remarkable interviews I've ever heard. Absolutely. My edited
   transscript is below.
   Somebody send an mp3 to the Governor...

     DS (David Strom): You guys want to re-fight the entire session. You
     want to redo taxes. You want to redo the bonding bill. You want to
     redo every bill that [Governor Pawlenty] vetoed.
     LP (Larry Pogemiller): David, that's absolutely not true.
     DS: OK, so what is true?
     LP: What you said on "Almanac" was absolutely not true. In private
     meetings, I have not requested one thing for the Special Session.
     The Governor asked Speaker Kelliher and I if we would have a
     Special Session and we said yes. He said he wanted to take up a
     long term solution, comprehensive solution [for the] transportation
     bill including the gas tax. He said he wanted to take up a tax bill
     for local government aid, and he said he wanted to take up a
     bonding bill. We said yes.
     DS: OK, but the question is when you say a long term comprehensive
     ...
     LP: Those were the Governor's words, and there have been no demands
     put on with regard to what that would be.
     DS: When we heard from [State Senator] Steve Murphy, he said well
     what passed is the floor and that was a one and half billion dollar
     a year tax increase. What passed is the floor, not the ceiling, so
     you're going to rewrite a bill ...
     LP: David, what you said that I said is just not true. You need to
     be accurate. I know you want to be accurate. It is simply not true
     that I have I have had any demands whatsoever for a Special
     Session. The Governor put the gas tax on the table. We are willing
     to do the gas tax if he is willing to do it. We are willing to do a
     comprehensive transportation bill if he is willing to do it. We are
     willing to do LGA if he is willing to do it. Those are the things
     he put on the table. If he chooses not to do those things, we
     should have a Special Session and just deal with flood relief and
     the bridge. Absolutely. Absolutely. If he does not want to do those
     other items, we should not do them. The primary thing to do is the
     bridge and the flood relief.
     DS: OK. [...] I've got the bill right in my pocket, right here for
     the comprehensive transportation bill. [...]
     LP: [...] What I said was that the Governor asked for comprehensive
     solution. And if everybody would get out of spin mode, and just
     talk about doing the right thing, we would get the right thing
     done. It's very simple. We know what we'll do on flood relief. We
     should do that. We know what we should do on the bridge. We should
     do that. And if the Governor wants to do additional items, we
     should do that also. If he doesn't, we should not do those
     additional items. It's that simple.
     DS: So if it's that simple, why have the negotiations gone so
     badly?
     LP: I don't think the negotiations have gone badly. I think that
     the Governor [is] not yet ready with the particulars of the bill.
     That's OK. We should wait until we get the particulars of the bill
     for flood relief and the bridge. And if there are additional items,
     we should do those also. And if political pundits will just calm
     down, we will have a Special Session. We will do a limited agenda
     in a short period of time, as the Governor has asked.
     DS: All right, now let me ask you this: is [Lt. Governor] Carol
     Molnau's appointment [as Commissioner of Transportation] going to
     come up?
     LP: I absolutely haven't given that a thought.
     DS: The Governor's got to give that a thought because if you guys
     go into session, he can't control what happens. [Reading the
     newspapers,] there have been these maximalist claims like the
     Transportation Bill that was put out there is the floor, not the
     ceiling. That is, after all, your Committee Chair who said that.
     LP: David, to be fair, the Lt. Governor said we would need a 30 to
     36 cent gas tax to do the right thing. We're not going to raise 36
     cent gas tax. We're just simply not going to do that. I hold the
     Governor for what he says. He can hold me for what I say. But you
     can't hold me for what another member of the Legislature says.
     DS: [...] I'm not holding you for that ...
     LP: Does Steve Murphy believe there should be a comprehensive
     package like the bill he passed? You bet he does.
     DS: Is that going to come up?
     LP: I don't know if it's going to come up.
     DS: The Governor's got to know that before he calls a Special
     Session.
     LP: No, the Governor needs to know what will be put on his desk.
     DS: Here, we're hearing a slightly different story.
     LP: No, David, we're not hearing a different story.
     DS: If the Governor calls a Special Session, he cannot undo that.
     Unless there is a comprehensive agreement beforehand ...
     LP: The Governor does not have the power to tell every single
     Legislator what they're going to do. I don't either.
     DS: If Roger Moe were there, they'd have cut a deal. [...]
     LP: The Speaker and I thought we had an agreement with the
     Governor, to have a limited agenda that involved the items he
     suggested. I personally think we still do have an agreement.
     Therefore, I'm assuming there's going to be a Special Session. I'm
     assuming it's going to be limited in scope. And the issue of how
     comprehensive the Transportation Bill is is simply up to the
     Governor. If he wants to have it limited just to the gas tax,
     perhaps that will be all we do. But I can't control that.
     DS: [...] You are the leader of your caucus.
     LP: It's a democracy. People get to vote yes or no. I can't tell
     Steve Murphy how to vote. I can't tell Tim Pawlenty whether to veto
     a bill or not. All I can do is control my own vote [and] keep my
     public rhetoric focused on the two things that are crucial to do
     right now, which are fix the bridge and do the flood relief. Every
     public comment I have made has been around those issues. That's all
     I can do.
     DS: That's all you can do, but you are the leader of your caucus.
     When Steve Sviggum would go and cut a deal with the Governor, there
     were a lot of people I know in the Republican caucus who would
     complain, "Weill I'm sorry, this is not what I like. I don't want
     to vote for this." But at the end of the day, that was the deal
     that was cut.
     LP: [...] The Governor have an agreement.
     DS: Can you keep your agreement?
     LP: Ahhh... In my 25 year history in the State Senate, I don't
     think you'll ever find one instance where someone says I haven't
     kept an agreement.
     DS: I asking: can you keep your caucus in control or is it going to
     turn into a circus?
     LP Absolutely it's not going to turn into a circus. The Speaker and
     I have the power to make sure it's a limited, short agenda.
     Absolutely.
     DS: And are you assuring the people of Minnesota now ...
     LP: I'm assuring the people of the state that we're going to do the
     right thing.
     DS: No no, is it going to be a limited short session?
     LP: It absolutely is going to be a limited, short session.
     Absolutely.
     DS: So there's not going to be an attempt to pass a "compo", what
     you call a comprehensive, which is a sales tax people can't vote on
     ...
     LP: David, I have no idea what members of the Senate and the House
     will try to do. All I can tell you is that it will be a short,
     limited agenda. We will accomplish flood relief and what's
     necessary on the bridge. That's all I can guarantee. That's what we
     will do.
     DS: But you're not guaranteeing that these other things won't
     happen.
     LP: I can't guarantee that somebody else won't introduce a bill. I
     can't guarantee that.
     DS: Well, wait a sec. You're the Majority Leader. You're supposed
     to be in control of your caucus.
     LP: It's a democracy.
     DS: Oh but it is not a democracy! [...] I mean, we know this. [...]
     LP: It is not a democracy?
     DS: Not the Minnesota State Senate. It's not a democracy. You have
     a caucus, don't you?
     MM (Margaret Martin): Yeah, you're the leader.
     DS: [...] Are you telling me that as leader of the Minnesota State
     Senate you actually have no control at all over your caucus? Aren't
     you in there appointing Committee Chairs?
     LP: Actually not. If you knew how the Senate works, the Majority
     Leader does not appoint Committee Chairs. A committee of the Senate
     appoints Committee Chairs. It is a democracy, unlike what you
     apparently believe. I do not have the power to appoint or take ...
     DS: [...] I follow the House very closely. The Speaker of the House
     ...
     LP: The Speaker does have power to appoint Committee Chairs. The
     [Senate] Majority Leader does not. That's a fine nuance, that if
     you read, you would know.
     DS: [...] I do a little bit about State government, having worked
     around it. And one of the things I've noticed was that the Senate
     used to be a well-oiled machine.
     LP: I think the Senate was a well-oiled machine.
     DS: Is it a well-oiled machine now?
     LP: The Senate put out two separate budgets. One was ...
     DS: [...] The got vetoed, and what I'm hearing from State Senators
     is [that] they want to refight single every one of those issues.
     LP: (pause) I'm not hearing that.
     DS: That's what we're reading in the newspaper.
     LP: That's what you're saying, David.
     DS: Didn't Steve Murphy say the Transportation Bill that's going to
     come out [...]
     LP: [...] He absolutely did not say that.
     DS: Yes he did. He did. He said it was a floor, not a ceiling. He
     said that. It's in the Star Tribune.
     LP: That's a little different from what bill's going to come out of
     the Senate because Steve Murphy can't control that either. [...] He
     has one voice. He has one vote. [...] It is a democracy and people
     get to vote.
     DS: So you're telling me everything is a pure democracy and you
     have no control. Committee chairs have no control ovre what
     happens?
     LP: What passes the Senate floor ...
     DS: [...] I was a Political Science professor. I had no idea that
     when they elect caucus leaders and committee chairs that these
     people just sort of sit there and wait and find out what their
     members want.
     LP: I don't think that's what I said.
     DS: OK. Can they lead their committees?
     LP: They can try, yes, absolutely. They do try. I presume Senator
     Murphy will try to lead his committee.
     DS: And is he going to try to get a bill that's a floor, not a
     ceiling?
     LP: I believe he will try to get what he believes is to be a
     comprehensive Transportation package.
     DS: But he's not going to pass what you want. I mean, you guys
     fundamentally disagree.
     LP: Right now you don't know what I want, David, because I haven't
     said.
     DS: Well I know what Steve Murphy wants because he's said. And you
     just told me you can't control Steve Murphy and [it] comes out of
     his committee.
     LP: I absolutely can't control Steve Murphy. Can you control Tim
     Pawlenty?
     DS: No. Of course I can't control Tim Pawlenty. I'm not elected to
     any office. [...]
     LP: Can you control Phil Krinke?
     DS: No.
     LP: So how do you expect me to control an independently elected
     official? [...] One more problem. I actually am Majority Leader of
     the Senate. [...]
     DS: Yes but [Senate Minority Leader] Dave Senjem isn't out there
     saying, oh well, all my guys are going to be coming up with these
     bills.
     LP: My understanding is that David is for a comprehensive
     Transportation bill.
     DS: Yes, but I don't think it's your [comprehensive Transportation
     bill], or Steve Murphy's comprehensive Transportation Bill.
     LP: That very well may be true.
     DS: [...] I think what's happening is you guys are setting things
     up so that there will be a huge confrontation over the same bill
     you had before.
     LP: I believe that will not happen.
     DS: Based upon what?
     LP: Our discussions with members of the Senate. I believe that will
     not happen.
     DS. All right, but the Governor needs to know that it's not going
     to not happen.
     LP: Well maybe the Governor should ask them.
     DS: He's having conversations with you. [...] When Roger Moe would
     shake hands with Arne Carlson, those deals happened. Are you
     telling me you can't do that?
     LP: I'm absolutely not saying that. I'm saying that when there is a
     Special Session called, there will be a limited agenda that the
     Governor will support, and we will be done. [...] Did you issue an
     apology to me yet, David? For saying something on Almanac that was
     absolutely not true? Absolutely not true.
     DS: Could you specify exactly what it was?
     LP: You said that I was the person demanding all kinds of items for
     the Special Session. Absolutely not true.
     DS: I do apologize for that. I generalized the caucus and I
     apologize for that.
     LP: Thank you.
     DS: I think you are right to demand that apology. But what I don't
     apology for is saying that the Democrats and the Committee Chairs
     are certainly making what appear to be lots of demands, [...] like
     a fourth income tax bracket.
     LP: Who ever said the income tax? I have no idea where you came up
     with that. I don't know anybody that brought that up for the
     Special Session. [...] It's not in the tax bill [sent to the
     Governor], it's not going to be now.
     DS: So, we're going to have a limited session where none of the
     things ...
     LP: If the Governor calls a Special Session, it will be limited,
     focused on transportation and flood relief. Absolutely. [...] It's
     been that way for about four weeks.
     DS: [...] That's certainly not what is being reported in the
     newspapers, and let me tell you, I've talked to a lot of reporters.
     LP: Have you read the letters the Speaker and I have sent the
     Governor?
     DS: I have and I've read the vague things that are said about a lot
     of stuff and even now you're saying "well everyone has one vote."
     LP: David, [...] don't project your paranoia.
     DS: It's not paranoia. When you say you cannot keep ...
     LP: Tell your listeners I was smiling, but I do think there is so
     much projection of paranoia that we ought to just get over it.
     DS: But when you say you can't control your members ...
     LP: They're independently elected. [I] encourage them to move in a
     direction that makes sense at this moment in time. That's all I can
     do.

   Incidentally, this is what David apologized for, on "Almanac" Friday
   night:

     If they have a Special Session, it should be about the bridge and
     the flooding. And what I'm hearing from Democrats, particularly
     Larry Pogemiller, is "we want to re-fight every single thing we
     lost on in the last session.